- “When you need to go from self-hate to self-love, you’ve got to get in a place of forgiveness, reset some expectations, and realign to some integrity.” – Jay Shetty
- In this special episode, Brendon interviews Jay Shetty on his new book, 8 Rules of Love. If you’d like to learn more about the revelatory guide to every stage of romance and relationships, this episode is for you!
- Jay Shetty, #1 New York Times bestselling author, award-winning podcast host of On Purpose and Chief Purpose Officer of Calm, is this week’s guest on the show! Jay’s second book, 8 Rules of Love, is available for purchase here or wherever books are sold. To catch Jay on his first ever world tour ‘Love Rules’, go to JayShettyTour.com for tickets. Follow Jay on Instagram (@jayshetty) and subscribe to his podcast “On Purpose”.
- Watch the video to get the full interview!
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[The following is the full transcript of this episode of Motivation With Brendon Burchard. Please note that this episode, like all episodes, features Brendon speaking extemporaneously–he is unscripted and unedited. Filmed in one take, Motivation With Brendon Burchard has become one of the most viewed unscripted, direct-to-camera self-help series in the history of YouTube. It has also been the #1 Podcast in all of iTunes and is regularly in the top podcasts in the Self-Help and Health categories around the globe. Subscribe to the free motivational podcast on iTunes or Stitcher.)
Brendon: Hey, my friends, it’s Brendon. Welcome to Motivation with Brendon Burchard. And I’ve got something really special for you. The first sit down interview I’ve done since the pandemic is with Jay Shetty, and this is an incredible interview talking about his new book, “The 8 Rules of Love”, it’s actually very cool, and you’ll see it’s very casual. We’ve been friends for a while, and the blessing is, we’re here at an event I’m doing just for some of the bigger influencers in the world. Collectively, that group reaches hundreds of millions of people and I just bring them together once a year or so to talk about what our dreams are, what we’re struggling with, and what we’re working on. And you’d be surprised as we go around the room how many people are struggling and challenged in this area of love, in this area of their relationships, or even love of themselves. And I think you’re going to love this interview, it was so casual we got to hang out. I really, truly appreciate it. So many people know Jay, as someone who reaches so many people around the world, he’s one of the most followed people in the world, certainly in the personal development, self-improvement and wellness space. He’s an absolute genius at what he does. He really is. But what I also love about him is his humanity. And you will see that here. He’ll talk about his relationship with his wife. I’ll talk about some things I’ve learned from my relationships, from my research, from us working with clients at the highest levels who are trying to achieve a lot, but also have loving relationships at home. I think you’ll love this interview. Please enjoy it with the great Jay Shetty.
Brendon: Hey everybody, it’s Brendon Burchard and I’m joined by none other than Jay Shetty.
Brother, this is so exciting. I’m so excited about your new book, I’m so grateful for your positive influence in this world, your dedication to that. And this is going to be a really personal interview because we’re talking about love and relationships. We both have kind of found the love of our lives, but we went through a lot to get it. People watching and listening, this is one of the areas of life people struggle with the most. And I want you to start with a quick affirmation of that, because you know my story. And on your podcast, I got to share how my journey into personal development began because I was in a car accident after depression with the first woman I ever loved. I thought I was going to get married to her. That relationship fell apart and then I fell apart. And if I hadn’t had that car accident, I probably would have taken my life. So for some people watching too, like my entrance into love and into a relationship was traumatic, it was depressive, it was suicidal, it was just awful. So when you told me this book title was like, Yes, because we need more books on relationships. And I think it’s going to be iconic, like, you know, iconic level. I’ve told you this five times, like the five love languages, like at that level, because the 8 Rules of Love, you go, “What are they?” We need to improve our lives. So I’d love to start with just like, why did you write this book? Because I know my journey into relationships and love is that personal, Like almost taking up my life. Why this book, when you could really do anything?
Jay: Yeah, well, Brendon, first of all, I want to say how grateful I am to you always to be spending time together. Ah, last time you interviewed me for “Think Like a Monk”, we had to do it digitally, because of the pandemic.
Jay: So to sit here together and actually do a physical interview with you is very special. And I want everyone to just know where we are, too. Brendon puts on this beautiful event once a year, if I can, where he invites just everyone who’s trying to serve through their mission, through their work, whether they have podcast books, products, courses. He invites all of us together to create community, and you’ve been doing it for years. We all come every year. I always say this to you, you’re the godfather of personal growth, and I’m grateful for that because you’ve found a way to bring everyone together when it’s so easy to compete and compare.
Jay: And you put this beautiful space on where everyone trust you to cry, to be vulnerable, to share their heart, and it happens every single morning.
Brendon: If we seem somber it’s because we just came from this amazing coaching that just happened in this room. I’ll be, what, 35, 40 people sharing their heart out about how hard work is and life is and relationships are. So yeah, the context of this like, is beautiful. Plus it’s like stormy and and raining. So right now we’re doing this. So it’s just like it’s actually I love that because it’s very grounding.
Brendon: Into a topic that I think you and I feel so passionate about where people struggle with this. So I’m just excited. I’m humbled that you feel that way and I’m happy that you’re here and I can’t wait to talk about this.
Jay: So I think what I found is that, I write about things that I feel I want to obsess about for years or things that I’ve obsessed about for years. And when it came to love, I just saw in my personal dealings, my own experiences, when I sat down with couples that had been together for 50 years in coaching or couples that have been together for five days, I saw two things. I saw people who had discovered their passion. They were winning in their financial goals, but their home life was falling apart. Their partner cheated on them. Their partner was abusive towards the kids. Maybe it wasn’t that extreme. Maybe it was just that they were just irritated and angry all the time with their partner.
Brendon: They’re separated, their divisive because maybe the achievement is here, but they kind of wrecked the relationship along the way because they were absent.
Jay: Exactly. And at home, their happiness was dictated by what was happening at home.
Jay: And then I saw the other side where I saw people who are struggling at work. Maybe they had a boss that talked down to them. Maybe they had family that didn’t believe in them, but their partnership was beautiful. It was a source of strength and a source of joy. And so I looked at then I thought, “you know what”? Love is that central pillar in our life. It’s that lifelong pursuit that we all know will give us the greatest joy, but it’s something that was never taught to us at school. We were just expected to know how to love.
Jay: When we work harder to get a degree. We work harder to get a driving license. We do it to get married, which is insane, and settle down with someone. And so I wanted to dedicate the last few years of my life to studying, love to research and love and coaching about love, and that’s where the “8 Rules of Love” came from.
Brendon: I love it. You know, when you think about it, we don’t get taught that. I grew up in a difficult household. My dad was a former Marine, 20 years of Marines, three tours in Vietnam, got all shot up. My mom’s father had been killed in war, and so she grew up kind of like bouncing around and in difficult situations. They met together. They fell in love, but both of them lacked a lot of that, like emotional tools of communication, so not just with each other, but sometimes how do you express yourself? They didn’t have a lot of role models, so I didn’t have a lot of role models growing up. How to emotionally express myself in relationships, which is one of the reasons that relationship went bad. Everyone always thinks it’s just her fault. And I got depressed and I was suicidal. I was like, actually, I didn’t know how to talk and I was impatient. What were some of the things that happened for you that you felt like either in this research or as inspiration for the book that Jay Shetty had to learn to open up and emotionally kind of be able to express himself with Radhi so that it was a great relationship?
Jay: Yeah, so one of the principles in the book that’s inside one of the rules talks about the gifts and the gaps. So I believe that when our parents loved us or the lack of their love gave us gifts or left gaps. So maybe your parents were always there for you, they were always present. That’s a gift they gave you. But now you expect that from anyone else you meet, because you expect love to show up as full presence and full energy, which is quite a high expectation. I’m not saying it’s a wrong expectation, but it can be a really tall order. Or your parents left gaps. They they didn’t show up to your basketball games. They didn’t listen to you when you were in pain. They told you to man up or stop acting like a girl and you have all these negative connotations towards your childhood, and so they left gaps. And what I find and I’ll share mine in a second, what I find is that we start to expect our partners to repeat our parents gifts and fill our parents gaps.
Jay: And that is the core of all the challenges where all the challenges start. So my personal example, which actually came from extended family more than even just my parents, and you have to really look at the first caregivers in your life. The first lovers in your life. There’s this amazing research that shows that our heartbeat and our breathing synchronizes with people that we spend a lot of time with. And in the beginning of our life, your mother is your caregiver. You’re breathing and your heart rate synchronizes, So the study goes on to say that the best thing for your nervous system is another human and the most dangerous thing for your nervous system is another human. And so if you’ve just been experiencing those gaps. So for me, one of my extended family members who I spent a lot of time with growing up, they would love me endlessly, but then they would make me guilty for not reciprocating with their love. This was a really nuance thing that I had to discover, and the way I discovered it, Brendon, was not in my childhood, not while being a monk. It was when I was three years in, married to Radhi and I would endlessly serve and give and I’d make her feel guilty for not reciprocating in the same way.
Brendon: Wow. And so how would you make her feel guilty? Tell us about that.
Jay: So, so. So I would go off and plan the most amazing vacation, a weekend retreat or a week away, whatever it may be, for her birthday. And then when it came around to my birthday, if she didn’t do the exact same thing, even though she did something beautiful, if she didn’t do the exact same thing, I’d be like, “You don’t love me enough”. Yeah, “you don’t really love me”.
Brendon: You thought your scorecard was the same as her.
Brendon: and the same points had to be replicated on the other side?
Jay: Absolutely, and that you should show love the same way Iwant you to show love. And you don’t love me enough, You don’t love me the same, You don’t love me at all. Now, these are big claims,
Brendon: But you would say that to her? OH!
Jay: I would say it, yeah, but that’s how I’d been loved. I’d been loved by my extended family in the same way, saying, “Oh, you don’t love us enough, you don’t care about it’s enough, you don’t show up enough”. And so I was repeating these patterns in cycles and it and it really hit me one day when I was like, am I making the person I love feel guilty for not loving me, regardless of all the other good?
Jay: And the greatness that they bring to my life?
Brendon: and either explicitly or implicitly giving your partner their greatest fear in their life, which we have as humans, which is, well one of our of our greatest fears, is, I’m not enough.
Brendon: and as soon as you add the word enough in the relationship, you have, like, a powder keg.
Jay: Oh, yeah. It’s so true. I mean, it’s just like the worst word.
Brendon: That word, right? You know, you didn’t do enough for me today. You don’t do the laundry enough. You don’t clean enough.
Brendon: You don’t talk to the kids enough.
Brendon: You add enough to any end of a sentence pain that is said to be a hammer. Right?
Jay: That is, such, that is such a good point. And then there’s two other words that we hear a lot with our partners. You always do this.
Jay: You always leave, you forget to take the trash out. You always come home late from work. You always forget when it’s the kids bedtime like you always. Yeah, they don’t always No one always does anything. And the opposite, you never turn up on time. You’re never there for the kids. You never get there to Christmas or family dinners. No one never does something. And so these extreme words like enough, never always they create so much fragmented disconnection in relationships that, I want us to be so careful and specific about the language, but again, we adopt the language of the environment we grew up in and we repeat it.
Brendon: And I know you talk about this too, because the actual trigger of what you just said always never enough. As you guys watch us to replay it, what Jay was saying is you always you never end the word. You in a relationship is like a dagger. Yeah. And what it does is they don’t even if they don’t hear always, never or enough, they hear you. And that’s accusatory. And now they’re on defensive because you didn’t start, you know, with where you’re at, where your heart is, what you’re feeling and sensing and expressing. And so you’re coming in the relationship, pushing it them versus drawing them in to help understand you. So how do you how, how did first Radhi deal with that? What was the feedback she gave?
Jay: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brendon: And then what would you think the turn was there.
Jay: Yeah. And I want to touch on something you just said that it just spoke my mind. It was like, what’s really interesting about when you use the word you like you said, it’s a dagger. The interesting thing is the other person, you think that they’d put a shield up, but the shield is the sword. So they’re not defending themselves with the shield, they literally bring out another another dagger and now you’re in a dagger fight or a sword fight. And it’s really interesting because we defend by attacking in relationships. We rarely defend by defending and hiding and so what I find in that scenario or that situation is also that, before I just dive into that specific part of the question. One of the things I talk about in the book is US and WE, not you and me.
Brendon: So good.
Jay: US and WE, not you and me. And I think I actually have done this with clients where I’ve asked, I’ve role played with them and I’ve said, I know they have to have this uncomfortable conversation with their partner. And so I’d say to you, Brendon, I’d say, “okay, this uncomfortable conversation you want to have with your partner, I want you to tell me how you’d say it to me.” We’ll literally break down the script, we’ll record it, put a video on them, audio, record it, right? We’ll transcribe it, and then we’ll look back at it and we’ll look at all the times they said, you and me. And literally you will find that in one page that’s like 30 used. And and like when it’s me, it’s like you make me feel like this. You’re not saying this is my fault. Like, it’s not that reflection. I then encourage them to change every you and me to us in and we. And it is the strangest exercise. The immediate feedback from a client will be like, “This feels uncomfortable, I can’t say it”. And I’m like, “No, but I want you to internalize the idea that you’re trying to get that together.” So with me and Radhi, the way Radhi responded when I used to say that was really interesting, she would actually hide away and disconnect more. Yes, she actually wanted to try less because she felt that nothing she did was good enough so she would put less effort.
Brendon: She was going to fail and she’s going to fail anyway.
Jay: Why try like she would get scared that no matter what she did wouldn’t make me happy enough.
Jay: And then now me on the other side, I’m going look, you proved me right. You proved me right. Realizing that I’m just pushing her away again and again and again and again. And so that was her form of defense in attack, which was. Well, I’m just not going to do anything because I can’t get that. And that’s not immediate. She tried in the beginning because she was trying and working hard
Brendon: You fall into that pattern. You fall phone that resignation to, okay, well, this is how he is. This is how she is.
Brendon: And you get stuck.
Jay: I can’t do anything because you’re finding a flaw with everything I do. And so it took me to sit with that. And I think this is something you do so beautifully and you encourage so much in your work. And I try and practice it in my life. Is if I’m not getting the result I want, I have to reflect on my words, actions and behavior. It’s not going to come from anywhere else. I have to do that. And so when I reflected and I started connecting the gifts and gaps and and anyone is listening or watching, all you have to do is think about the gifts your parents gave you and how you expect them from your partner sometimes without them knowing and sometimes astronomically high standards. Because you might have had a beautiful example, but you haven’t really verbalized that your partner, they don’t know where that comes from or what are the gaps you got from your parents that you’re trying to have your partner filll perfectly and specifically and accurately, again, without them knowing again, with not feeling it yourself. And that’s why I came to this realization that whatever you want from your partner, give it to yourself first. If you want compliments, compliment yourself. If you want validation, validate yourself. If you want strength and courage, find it within yourself. Because the more you’re expecting it from someone else, the farther you’re going to push them away because they can’t even fill that hole. Their job is not to fill that hole.
Brendon: That’s so true. And for those who are listening, it’s not just your parents and the gap and the gifts there. It might have been your first love
Brendon: and that that was it or it might’ve been your last husband. You know what I mean? Like, a lot of people are carrying the wounds of the last relationship into the new relationship. Now you just their child. Literally six months ago, I went on a date with that person. This happened or whatever. So I would love to hear about that because I think that was my journey. And honestly, Jay, why it took me long to find happiness in my life. I was hurt in this relationship, became depressed and suicidal because of it. Luckily I had a car accident that made me say “I actually want to be happy”. I just don’t know how. So I studied personal development, I think it did in reflection. I think it took me a while to heal and I bet a lot of people are listening. They can recognize there’s some part like it was really hard to heal from that last relationship or that one time, and they might even be in a good relationship, but they’re still carrying that wound. Yeah, and I think so much about relationships is learning to find, as you said, what fills you up and giving yourself that gift. What’s another thing someone can do if they feel like there’s that wound or that baggage that they know they have that’s actually hurting the current person?
Jay: Yeah, Yeah. Anything you don’t heal in the past, you will take it into your future. And you can’t think that a wound is covered enough where it won’t affect; and one of the things I’d say that if— and I love your personal example that you’re sharing— you’ve, you know, to hear that you couldn’t move on fully because there’s this wounding,
Brendon: I think it took years..
Jay: Yeah, it does take years and, and I’m not saying you have to fully heal yourself before you walk into a relationship because it’s unlikely. And I don’t want to put these impossible, unlikely timelines on people saying you’ve got to be a perfect human- being before you find the love of your life. It’s not true. One thing I think that you deeply have to do is you have to, when the time is ready, discover the root of the wound. You have to figure out what was the root of that wound. I talk about in this book. I talk about the types of people that we pursue, the mistakes we make again and again and again. And so I name them: it’s the Rebel, the Project, the Chase, the F Boy or the F Girl, like someone who’s just a player and straight up bad for you, and the fifth is the Opulent One. And I’ll explain what that means.
Brendon: I love this. And so these are archetypes. These are archetypes. People you tend to go after, correct? Based on what?
Jay: Based on wounds. Based on wounds and gifts and yeah. So what we start to do is we start to chase the Rebel because our parents forced us to follow the rules. So our wound is that I was forced to follow the rules. I was forced to stay disciplined and principled, and be polite and kind and all this stuff. And I don’t like it now.
Brendon: I was loved by control. You lived by control.
Jay: Exactly. So I’m going to find someone who has no control, who breaks the rules so you can start to see how your wounded. And so the way you get familiar with your wound is you look at the patterns of who do I always chase, Who do I, who do I often feel attracted to, and why? Why am I truly attracted to that person? Is it because they’re a rebel and they’re breaking rules? Is it because they’re the chase or is it because my parents were never around? Maybe my first love was never around. Maybe they isolated me, left me alone. So I love the chase. I love the feeling of having to earn someone’s validation and hold on to them. Right. The third is the project. This one is fascinating and I think..
Brendon: Sorry, ex-girlfriends! He doesn’t have to explain it to me. I think I was that person.
Jay: Especially in the personal growth industry, like we chase projects because we want to fix them. We think were the fixers, we think we have the tools. We want to find someone who’s broken and we want to solve them. We want to solve that puzzle to give ourselves validation. So all of our wounds are linked to a validation that we want. All of our wounds are a link to validation that we want, and we have to discover the wound and give ourselves the validation. The fourth one is the Player, the kind of the person who’s braggadocious, has that kind of swag to them. You’re attracted to them because of the wound of, “I’m not good enough, I’m not cool enough, I’m not enough. If I get them, I’ll be enough.” And the fifth one is the Opulent One. This one fascinates me every time. So the word opulence is used in the Bhagavad Gita to describe things that humans pursue in life, and how all humans pursue all opulences, but no one can have all of them in full. And so you may find someone and I’ll name the six opulences. So they are beauty, strength, renunciation, knowledge, wealth and fame.
Brendon: I was going to say wealth or popularity.
Jay: Yeah, yeah. Wealth and fame. So those are the six opulences and what I find is really interesting, the studies show this too. So I took this ancient concept from the Vedas and then looked at the modern science. It shows that we naturally; and you’ll know about this in hiring, in all the companies you work with ,The Halo Effect. And, how the halo effect works in relationships is that you find someone who has one opulence. So you think because they’re wealthy, they must be organized at home, because they’re famous, they must be a really likable person, because they’re beautiful, they must be trustworthy. We start giving people qualities because they demonstrate one opulence. You.
Brendon: He’s famous. He must be nice.
Jay: Yeah, exactly. He must be nice. He’s smart. He must be really thoughtful and conscientious. And he must be really, if he’s a great writer or a great speaker, he must communicate really well.
Brendon: The halo effect is trait assignment. It’s correct. Oh, I like this positive thing about them. There must be this whole other thing. And you might miss the fact that, no, this is a piece of them. A beautiful person who might be beautiful on the outside, but not on the inside. But you assume that.
Jay: Exactly. So what I want people to do is look back at what they’ve notoriously chased in order to really focus on the wound and the validation. And that way, when you have the wound and the validation in front of you, you now know where to start.
Brendon: Oh, I love that. I love that something else came to my mind when we were deciding to talk about this, which was I feel like the last two or three years, there was so much change and good relationships that got pulled apart, even though they might have been closer together, like during the pandemic or during a shutdown, or even just as people work more at home when remote working happened, you just saw like strong relationships kind of crack under the change. I would wonder if someone’s listening to this right now and they’re in this place where they feel like they actually are in love, but something has pulled them apart and there’s this new division in their relationship. And maybe it’s been like a widening divisiveness. Nothing like, no crazy infidelity happened or, you know, they didn’t lose all the money. Nothing dramatic. This is your average couple who just feels like we’re distancing, especially the last two or three years. What do you say to them? Because I think that’s a really common thing, but a hard one to diagnose.
Jay: Yeah, Yeah, I think you’re spot on there. So many external factors can wreck, you know, our relationships and and you sometimes, like you said, you just don’t know where it happened. So let’s dive into that. One thing I’ve found is that relationships don’t end because love ends. They end because patience ends. They end because kindness ends. They end because understanding ends and what’s really coming to mind, as you say that, is I have this really beautiful quadrant in the book where I talk about new and old and there are 4 types of relationships we can have. So there are some relationships that are old relationships, and we only know things about them from back in the day. That’s an old, old relationship. That relationship is old and it’s stayed, old. They did a study that showed people video footage of their partner when they were angry. So they filmed their partner when they were angry and they ask them to guess what their partner must have been thinking about. The couples that were together the longest just made the most mistakes on that exercise. Because they thought they knew. They assumed they already understood their partner fully. There was nothing new to learn. It was old. Old knowledge. So it’s like we’ve been together. When people say we’ve been together for 20 years, we’ve been together for 30 years. The next question is— welll make that relationship an old -new. What have you learned new about your partner. They’ve evolved. Of course they’ve evolved. They’ve evolved in the last month, the last three months. And especially when you go through something like a pandemic, everyone’s re-evolving all the time and we never learned what’s their new way of dealing with stress or what’s the new stress they’re dealing with? Right? What’s the new challenge or the fresh new fear. What’s happening for them because of all of this stuff? So that’s the new old.
Brendon: Oh, I really like that. The new old.
Jay: Yeah. And the old old and then you have two more. You have the new, new. That’s obvious. You meet someone new and you learn something new about them. And so I’ve met people today that I’ve never met before, and I’m it’s a new relationship and I learn something new that’s fresh and it’s easy. It’s why we love a new fling or a new affair. It’s enticing because it’s new, new. It’s. It’s all fresh. And then the interesting one, which I really love, the old new where you’re finding something old about a new connection. You try and find what do we have in common at our roots and core in an old connection. So but the two ones I wanted to highlight there are just that new old. And the old old. Like, I just find that so many of us think we know our partners. We assume we know them because we’ve been with them for X amount of years and we consider that time together equals empathy, understanding and a full comprehension of human behavior about an entirely different person.
Brendon: Oh yeah. You know, it’s interesting. I had a high school reunion once and, you know, old friends had come up and there was such a different communication strategy and the quality of that relationship in that moment, in that night of talking with friends. Because some people would be like, “Oh, do you remember the thing with the thing that we did in high school?” And they had all these stories of the past and it stopped there. And some people would come up, they’d have that conversation. It was like they were living, 15 years ago. And then there was someone else who’d come up and they’re trying to meet you now. And the people who tried to meet me now at the reunion, we talked all night and I just thought “it’s the same”. So I feel like people do that. It’s a communication strategy. At home are you trying to find out the new thing about your partner? Where they’re at now? What they desire and what they really think, feel, need, drive for now. Versus who you thought you knew when you got married. Because roles have changed, jobs have changed, kids came in the board. Maybe you’re not. And all of a sudden you have a different person dealing with a different reality. How do you create that pattern of communication where we’re updating, like when you and I get together as friends? What’s going on? Like, we have that and I feel like a lot of relationships they forget to check in. Like what is a check-in routine look like from the research or from what you’ve coached other people? Is this a daily weekly, like how do you think about helping people get there?
Brendon: Yeah, I love that. I’m so glad you asked that question and I’m going to frame that. Really, I think you’re going to love this. Like this is something that I think you’ll really appreciate because I even… and I want anyone who’s not seen Brendon explain Phase three. Phenomenal. I love that this morning and I love how you think in phases and what people are feeling. And so, I think you’ll appreciate this a lot. One of the things I found was if you ask most couples today, what is their most common activity to do together? The majority of people, I think the studies show like 70 to 80%, and I think it’s probably more if we really talk to people, the number one thing they do with their partner is watch TV. That is the most common activity. So now you got two people watching TV. And, you know, we’re not that surprised by it, too. People are watching TV and most likely you both have an iPad or an iPhone in your hand, too. So now not only are you in this world, they’re in their world. You’re also supposedly spending time together in this reality, when the truth is, you’re definitely not spending time together, but more importantly, you’re exchanging zero energy.
Brendon: Yes. So are you really going to those devices and that moment to turn off? Yeah, to de-stress. But if that’s the only way you’re turning off the relationship.
Jay: Yeah, exactly. And so, do your sound effect again. Oh it’s like you swiping. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you’re doing all of that really, really fast. I can’t do the sound effect, but you do all of that really, really fast, but this relationship is not moving anywhere. And so what I created in the book and in my coaching practice is four levels of intimacy and therefore ease, and that is escalating levels of intimacy. So entertainment with your partner is the lowest form of intimacy and connection, i.e. watching TV, watching a show. That is not even me and you. When have me and you ever watched a TV show together?
Brendon: Never, Never.
Jay: And we would say that, sure, we may not know each other deeply, but we have deep conversations that are intimate, vulnerable, open. We’ve never watched a TV show together. I’ve never watched a TV show with Lewis Howes. And even we hang out all the time because we both live in L.A. I’ve never watched a TV show with anyone in that room that I’m friends with. Yeah. Or a movie, for that matter. We’ve never done that.
Brendon: But even one hour a night when I think about this. We were guilty of this in my relationship and I think about it. It’s like, well one hour a night, you know, that’s 7 hours a week. That’s a whole 8- hour workday. If you think about it. And then, you know, over the course of a month, that’s 30 hours of television, like, oh, wait, now we’re getting… that’s a lot of time not talking. But I don’t think you and I are the people who say, oh, the media is terrible. No, but you have to know that cost if you’re not having another practice to bring you closer.
Jay: And by the way, me and Radhi did the same thing in the Pandemic. I hadn’t watched TV for ten years. And in the pandemic, I watched more TV in one year than I’ve watched in the last ten years. And that became our relationship, too. So I’m struck by this from my experience where every night we waste so much time trying to figure out what to watch, find nothing to watch. You’ll find something that really didn’t work. And then you’re dissatisfied with your relationship because you go to sleep feeling so unfulfilled. So again, I love movies. I even sometimes love video games. But the point is that it can’t be your point of connecting with your partner. Don’t say that that is your intimacy building. The next level, the next state of intimacy escalating one step above is experiences and experiments. And the way I define this experience is everyone knows, date nights, restaurants trying to go out together, try and make an effort together. And I find even that can get really exhausting for people and boring and you still end up on your phones. That’s why I have the word experiments and experiment is where both of you are a beginner doing an activity together; where both of you are not pros. Maybe you go pottery, maybe you go kayaking, maybe you go to a paint class or try painting at home with a YouTube channel. Maybe you’re going to try and construct something you’ve never done before. Yes. Take an activity where neither of you are professionals or experts, so there’s no ego, and I promise you, you learn something new about your partner. You might learn a hidden skill. They have a little hidden gem in them, so you try and experiment. A step above that, you’ll love this one, is education. Take a course together, read a book together, and even me and Radhi really struggled with this. Read your own books and then discuss them. That’s what me and Radhi do. So three nights a week Radhi will be reading a book she loves or listening to a podcast she loves. I’ll be reading a book I love, and then we’ll gather together to excitedly share what we learned because we don’t like reading the same stuff. So, you know. And then the highest level, which really just escalates so much intimacy and vulnerability in a relationship is engagement. Go and serve together, help out a soup kitchen, a homeless shelter, go to the trenches, go and serve together. Because the connection you’re going to have when you’ve had a shared experience, if you’ve just given a bowl of soup to a child in India together and you’ve witnessed the joy on their face and the experience that they’re having, the intimacy you feel with your partner…nothing compares to it. So I want people to escalate up that journey and realize there’s more things we can do than eat at a restaurant and watch TV.
Brendon: That’s right. I love that. And also I found in our relationship, if we don’t plan that or schedule that it doesn’t happen. So I think the best years that we tend to have or the years where we begin, the year we say, okay, we’re going to take these four adventures throughout the year, like literally January during these four adventures. When will these specific trips see the family? It’s kind of like schedule out in the year.
Brendon: So that there’s something to look forward to, but that mixes in there. Yeah, some of it’s travel, some is with family, some it’s a new city, some it’s a new thing. And I think that when that’s on the calendar, I know it sounds so basic, but it’s like, oh, it’s something to look forward to versus just, hey, you know, every Friday we go at one place because if you don’t show up to that old place in a new way, yeah, it’s just getting stale.
Jay: Absolutely. And I want to add to that one thing you asked earlier, which is parallel to that. There’s a check in and that’s what you said, check in. You know, what’s the way to check in? So this is like a planning check in. I have a check in for every day, every month, every quarter and every year with your partner. There’s one question per item. So one checking every day, one checking every month, the one checking every quarter and one checking every year. Every day. Checking with your partner and ask them what did you do for yourself today? What did you do for yourself today?
Jay: Just check in with them because I promise you, they’ve been trying to do everything for you, the kids, their family. They didn’t do anything for themselves checking you. What did you do for yourself? Every day, every month. Check in with them and ask them, What can I help you with? What can I be a part of? What can I support you with? Because over that month they may be going through so many different things. Now you get a chance every quarter. This is one that I do with rather every quarter. It’s uncomfortable, but it’s needed. I ask you this question. I ask the three questions, Is this relationship going in the direction you want? And if it is what’s going right, what should we do more of? If it isn’t, what are we both willing to do about it? So what’s that collective responsibility? And then once a year, what are your goals? What are you trying to achieve this year? So those four check ins. Yeah. So every day, every month, Every quarter, Every year, yeah. You will always be in touch with the heartbeat of your partner and the pulse of where they are.
Brendon: I love it. I love it. Hours. I would say when we’re at our best, we’d be like a Sunday check in like what’s coming up this week? Yes. What do you struggle with this week? What’s happening? What do we need to do? What do we need to handle? And honestly, as life gets busier, the funny thing is we don’t do that. Yeah. And that’s the very thing that allows you to deal with the busy better. Yes. Yes. So. Well said. Yeah. Yeah.
Jay: And informing your partner why you’re busy. I think. You know, when I look at my schedule, I’m sure you feel the same. I’ll often say to Rahvi, I’m going to be I’m actually going to be quite like stress week. I’ve got a really stressful week coming up. So if you notice me being a bit irritated or being a bit more snobby than usual, just know that that’s what I’m going through and I’m always prempting it
Jay: Rather than like ending up in that position, pretending to be perfect. And then she’s let down. It’s like just know that this week I’m because I’m doing long hours of really and I’m really quite I’m going to be quite tired. I’m going to be exhausted. I’m just letting you know that, you know…
Brendon: You know where I’ve messed that up. I’ll say that and then I’ll say, So I need your help. And I was like, Hey, I’m going to go through this hard thing, so I need you to do this thing. And that’s where I can just do this like a no. That’s what I do. She’s like, Okay, yeah, let’s do that.
Jay: But even that still, I think there’s just so many small things like we both just described. And yes, you’re so right, they go out the door when you’re exhausted to go out the door when you’re stressed. Studies show that when we’re not experiencing stress, we can deal with up to seven different things. And when we’re experiencing acute stress, that number drops from 7 to 3.
Jay: And I think for most of us it drops even further. Yeah, below one. And so if you think about your partner coming home from work, they’re going to have only three things they can think about, well, minus one. And all of a sudden we’re just not conscious and aware. And so we don’t even understand. We want our partners to just be good at dealing with stress. And sometimes that’s because we want ourselves to be good at dealing with stress. The truth is the human brain is just not that great at dealing with stress. And so if we’re not helping our partner and helping ourselves work on our stress levels, it’s actually hard to be good communicators.
Brendon: So true, in these difficult last couple of years, we always divisiveness. I’m curious about and this would be so interesting to hear your perspective. And of course, people will laugh at like two dudes talking about this. But yeah, when you have a relationship that also is pulling across in intimacy, you give up like the four quadrants or the four levels here, but also that physical intimacy, because a lot of people’s complaint about their relationship is, oh, you know, we lost that spark. The chemistry is gone. You know what? We’re not making love as much as we used to or it doesn’t you know, it’s not as vibrant or fun as it used to be. So in that physical intimacy. Yeah. When I’m sure you’ve seen that before, when you’re coaching people and they’ll tell you about like, “Hey, everything’s good, but we’ve lost that.” And I know a lot of personal friends who’ve gone through that where it’s really a big struggle for them. Yeah. How do you then start that conversation with your partner? Yeah. Or how have you seen couples work through that? I think that’s a tough one to navigate, but I think everyone listening to go, “You know what I’ve heard that or I’ve seen our I’ve been part of or I am now, so I wonder what he would say. Yeah.
Jay: The first thing I’d ask everyone is that the book, by the way, is going like that…
Brendon: Okay, guys. 8 Rules of Love. Jenny Interview over Not like that’s it. Just go like that’s one reason to get the book because I think some people struggle with that but it’s also there’s terrified to tell their friend at lunch or they’re terrified to bring it up because it brings up stuff for them.
Jay: Yeah, well, everyone thinks that everyone else has an amazing sex life, right?
Brendon: Right, right.
Jay: And they think they’re the only one missing out. And all the studies show that. No, it’s declining across the board and to chances. Yeah. And so chances are, your friends and family are probably dealing with the same thing. You’re just massively unaware. So I think there’s there’s a couple of sides to this. One is that when. All right. Let me let me ask you ask given a question, everyone is listening and watching. How many times have you been in a relationship in the past or maybe even currently where the physical connection, sex, was incredible, but there was no emotional connection? I think I think a lot of people will able to relate to that.
Jay: Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I can relate to that right time in my life. And then what I find today is that when people say everything’s great, but that’s not to me, that’s a sign that everything’s not great. Because to me, if you are not vulnerable emotionally, how could you be vulnerable physically if you’re not opening yourself up fully, emotionally and feeling that you really the physical intimacy is a sign of trust and a sign of safety, that when I’m with you, I feel safe, I feel trusted, I feel wanted. I feel, I feel a part of this as opposed to like, But how can I be that if I don’t feel a part of your life emotionally? And so I find a lot of that spark, a lot of that chemistry, a lot of that comes from a lack of emotional intimacy. And so my encouragement is that the more you escalate in your emotional intimacy, the more you’re being vulnerable with each other, the more you really learning about each other. It’s more natural to feel embraced in safety as safe and trusted in that environment.
Brendon: Such great coaching.
Jay: Yeah. So I just don’t want people to think they’re separate because I think that’s how we often see it.
Brendon: I want to bookmark something for you. Yeah. Listening right here. Please hear how he just addressed this. And this is what makes him such a great coach because he went immediately to personal responsibility. But maybe the intimacy isn’t here because I am not vulnerable and open and safe. He didn’t say, You need to sit down your partner and tell her why she’s not. Well, why aren’t you being intimate? Right? You know, that’s what people do. That’s what they don’t feel. That connection. Physically, the chemistry is gone and they literally blame the other person, which shuts them down or shames them, which doesn’t lead to more, you know, time with intimacy. So I think that’s so great going within and asking yourself, do I feel safe? Do I feel vulnerable? Am I opening to connection? Yeah, that’s profound. Yeah, I know.
Jay: So Brendon, you know, I think the challenge we’ve seen over the last few years is also and you can cut this out if it doesn’t apply to your audience, but has been the rise of porn.
Brendon: Right, Right.
Jay: The addiction to porn and false expectations of intimacy are a big reason why people are not satisfied with real forms of intimacy.
Brendon: They’re externalizing it…
Jay: Externalizing it, already having crazy expectations. I looked at the studies because I really wanted to understand this. The searches are more and more violent and abusive, and rock like those are the most highly searched videos on porn websites across the world. And so now real life doesn’t look like the real tenderness real yet what we’re talking about. And so there’s there’s really this warped view of physical intimacy in the brain. Yeah. And compared to what’s happening in reality, right.
Brendon: Because the number of hours people are watching in pornography. Yeah. Aren’t matching the ten or 20 minutes or whatever it is or two in bed where it’s like, so you’re like, I watch all of this. Yeah. All week or month, which is what people are getting in, you know, And then in that those more intimate or even briefer moments of real life. Yeah. They’re being disappointed. Absolutely.
Jay: Which is the same thing on Instagram. I see the same thing on Twitter. Yeah, it’s the same thing.
Brendon: It’s like the expectation you’re sending by watching an external world. So for those who aren’t on the porn like ideation here, it’s like, No, what we’re talking about is we externalize something we think that should be him or her or them. And that’s just not how it really works. It plays out. So how do you regain that between the couple? So if both can step into a place of more vulnerability, as you talked about earlier, how does that dialog happen? Yeah, yeah. Like, okay, I’m going to kind of take how does the dialog about wanting that part of your life to be better?
Jay: Yeah, I think that’s such a great question. I think the first thing, as we said, step one is this is where I’m struggling. This is where I know I can be more this. This is where I need to be more A, B, C, whatever it may be. Right? That that personal, vulnerable space, that’s step one. Step two is listening and asking, do you feel the same or what is it for you? Where is it for you? And now it’s an open question, right? I think about this like, well, you were saying earlier, if you got something, go, this is our this is your issue. This is what’s going wrong? Why is it going wrong? That person’s going to feel afraid and not say anything. Whereas if you go out and say, this is what I’m struggling with, is there a struggle for you? What’s going on in your life? And you might find it’s not even about you. You might find it’s got nothing to do with you. And I’ve found that the people I’ve coached, chances are it’s not actually about either of you. It’s about something that happened a long time ago to that person. Right? It’s about something that happened to your relationship a long time ago. Or it’s about something in their professional life or a personal validation feeling that they’re struggling with. And you’ve been thinking this whole time, that person doesn’t like you, they’re not attracted to you, you’re not attracted to them anymore. And it’s not that. So please listen to them, right? Please listen to them. And I think the third step is now saying, okay, well, what are the things that we think? Again, going back? There’s escalated forms of intimacy. If you go back to those four steps, I promise you, if you doing more experiences, if you do more experiments, you learn more together. You’re going to feel so energized and invigorated by that person. Because I tell you this, when you try something new together, that person is going to become more attractive to you, I promise you, because you haven’t seen them do something new for 20 years, I’ve been doing the same thing. They’ve been bringing you dinner, they’ve been washing plates, they’ve been cleaning the house, you’ve been cleaning the house, you’ve been doing the same activity. How will you be attracted to that person? I just Rahvi and I just went to the Maldives. And, you know, one thing I love about Rhavi is she’s so into extreme sports and she’s not scared. And I’m kind of like the older I get, I’m like, I really value my life. Like, I’m like, I’m okay. I’ve become less. And she’s like, wakeboarding and, you know, trying to do crazy surfing and diving and all this stuff. You get more attracted to your partner because you start noticing of all these qualities they have as opposed to like, Oh yeah, that’s what she’s always done. And so I want people to see their partner in a new way. I want you to see your partner in, in different spaces and ways. Your partner is so much more beautiful and exciting and wonderful that you just don’t see any of it because they’ve just been playing the same role at home for too long with you and you’ve probably been doing the same.
Brendon: Yeah, the situation’s often the same at home or situations at work. Your relationship became very familiar. Yes. And then when you go do these adventures, it’s something else. You see independence? Yes. And independence is sexy. Yes. And so they’re like, Oh, they’re that. Oh, look at them. Oh, I didn’t even know that. Oh, well, we and the independence brings them back to life. I think it’s so beautiful.
Jay: Yeah, I think it’s very real intangible. Right? It’s not like this awkward thing of like, okay, well let’s schedule it and then let’s figure this out. I think you solve the problem outside the bedroom, right? That’s what I’m trying to say. Solve the problem outside the bedroom. That’s that’s where the challenge is.
Brendon: I love I also appreciate how you bring up the past. And you said they’re actually doing something so long ago. I always teach in relationships. It’s like step number two. I was saying relationships. Understand? You’re living with a trauma survivor.
Jay: Yes. So well said.
Brendon: And soon as you can step into empathy and realize actually most people went through a pretty significant trauma somewhere in their life in that that they carried that with them. And so when they’re being angry, impatient, dismissive, condescending, hurt, shut down something outside, What you’re sensing right now in the situation, you think you’re arguing about the vacuum cleaner, It’s not about the vacuum cleaner. It’s like there’s something, right? There’s something. And always go, I wonder what else might be going on right now for my partner? Yes. Because I can’t believe we’re arguing about the burritos. Yeah. So? So you really like it’s almost. It’s the hardest thing I’ve ever been in relation to that. True. It’s like you have to be able to in a in a conflict you have two contexts which, yes, you’d say the context seems like this, but we’re in a conflict. Maybe there’s another context. Yeah. Trauma, parenting. Yeah, attachment style. What happened at work today? What the kids do when they came home. You have to, like, almost try to find what that is.
Brendon: To lead to what’s actually happening. Yeah. And so is there something, you know, you found that really works well when like, how do we get to the the and I mean say this not very elegant but how do we get that point in our relationship where we get really good at saying, you know, what’s really going on. Yeah. Yeah. What is that?
Jay: I think and you’ve just you’ve actually described it really beautifully. It’s almost like the Russian doll moment where it’s like you got to keep opening it up, you see. Want that. Yeah. You to keep opening them up. And then there’s like the little tiny child inside that like with a little doll inside and you’re like, oh, that’s really at the core of how this creepy. I never thought about it. Really? Yeah, it’s really weird, right? Like, so you got to open it up. How do you do that? Practically. In my book, 8 Rules of Love, I talk about, you know, we’ve always had about the love languages, which I love. It’s such a beautiful model. But then when I was studying and we were just talking about the last night, we basically did this podcast last night, but without without the camera equipment. But this is beautiful. I’ve interviewed and spoken to and read the work of John and Julie Gottman, and I’m a big fan of the Gottman Institute. I think they do the most incredible research on relationships and whenever I spoke to them, they would always talk about how the number one skill needed in a relationship was not date nights, it was not holiday cruises, it was not birthday gifts, it was not anniversaries. It was learning how to fight and deal with conflict, how to argue, how to argue. And the reason why I bring this to light is because we think we’re arguing about money, sex and chores. Top three things that couples fight about. We think we’re arguing about money, sex and chores. But like you rightly said, where you’re actually arguing about is the trauma root of all those three things, the relationship our families had with money, the relationship that we had with physical intimacy in the past, and the relationship that we have with responsibility and work. And so I found that there are three fight styles and these three fight styles. I have a quiz in the book to help you understand which one you have. And the three fight styles came because I found that whenever me and Radhi argue, exactly like you said, you get lost in the burrito or who’s cleaning the house, and you’re not able to understand how that person is processing their pain and trauma. So, I’ll give you an example. There are three. It’s venting, hiding and exploding. Venting is “I want to talk about it. I want to talk about it right now and I need to vent about it”. Hiding is “I need to go to my cave. I don’t want to hear about it. I need space”. And exploding is it’s emotional, “I’m just experiencing all my emotions. I just need an emotional outpouring”. None of these are better or worse. None of these makes you a better fighter or worse fighter. This is just how we react. So, I found in my relationship, I’m a venter. I want to talk about, I want to talk about it right now. I want to fix it right now. I’m a venter about everything, Radhi is a hider. She wants to disappear. She wants to go into a room and think about it. In the beginning of our relationship, I was so frustrated because I saw that as a sign of: You don’t care as much as me.
Brendon: Right, you’re disengaged.
Jay: You’re disengaging and you’re not committed to solving this problem. But in her head she was saying, I am committed to solving the problem because I’m going to reflect on it. I’m going to digest it, and then I’m going to come back. So the way we can in an argument and understanding that the way your partner responds to that trauma is different from your’s.
Jay: And that doesn’t make them any less valid. And so what we realized in our relationship was we had to set a time limit to say, we’re going to come back. You need two days. I want it now. We’re going to talk in 12 hours. We’re going to give ourselves that time and space. You need 12 hours – you need two days. I need now. We’re going to meet in the middle, 24 hours, 12 hours, whatever works for you. And we’re going to figure that out. And to me, that’s what – what’s ruining the what you’re saying, how do you figure out what it actually is? Because you’re going beyond this moment. You’re going beyond. You’re saying, I understand that that’s how you deal with trauma. But let’s take some time to digest what we’re seeing and let’s really go there.
Brendon: Yeah, I love these styles: venting, hiding and exploding. I don’t know where mine would fit in. I’m like, and I learned from the Gottman’s.
Brendon: I’m – I would very much probably be in the camp of arguer of let’s replay this tape. These are the facts of what happened.
Brendon: And because these facts …
Brendon: … this is how I feel. And she might be living in the world of feelings.
Brendon: And we assign meaning very differently. Very differently. And so now I will try to persuade.
Brendon: So I don’t know if I’d be a venter. I’m the persuader. Right? So and then I’m really in trouble. The more I persuade, the more she shuts down.
Brendon: And, and of course, I see this all my, you know, clients as well as you. It’s like, well, when there’s that different style, that venter, or that exploder, like, there’s, like, there’s that piece we need to make of: let’s take some space. Or instead of me trying to persuade, it’s me trying to ask and uncover.
Brendon: And I would teach myself that because my immediate default would be defensiveness where I grew up. We’re trying to make the argument because I’m so logical. Instead of going, oh, well, it’s also logical to try to understand this person’s perspective. Let me ask a bunch questions.
Brendon: And I’ve always found that solved almost everything is ask more questions.
Jay: Yeah, and that’s – you’ve just hit the nail on the head. We’re thinking that the end of this argument is win or lose. So, we’re trying to win and actually learn and win, right? When you ask questions, you learn and then you win. So, the more you use that as a learn and win, not win or lose – because we’re thinking, if I win, you lose. I win. By the way, if you win and your partner loses, you both lost.
Jay: You’re on the same team.
Jay: You sleep next to that person. You wake up next to them every day.
Brendon: Or in the other room because you’re in trouble.
Jay: Or that night, the other room. And the opposite is true, too. If you lose and they win, you both lose. And so the only way to win together is learn and win. Like, learn about why are we here? I was working with a client recently and she wasn’t happy with her partner’s spending habits, right? He was being really wasteful and they were really struggling financially. And so she was really worried about it. And when I was working with her, I said, look, I understand that there’s a lot of pain you have here and a lot of insecurity and worry around your financial situation. But instead of pointing the finger and targeting and calling him out because I’m sure he’s aware, have you ever asked him why? Like why he buys what he buys, like just as a positive question, not as an interrogation or an intervention, but it’s just an inquiry.
Jay: Have you ever asked? She goes, I’ve never asked. So I said, can you do that? So, she asked him. She asked him. She, she asked him positively, like, oh, that’s really cool. Like why did you buy that? Right? And the first few times he gave quite like a, you know, fluffy, a superfluous answer saying like, oh yeah, I like did whatever. And she’d ask him and as the things got bigger, she asked him and he said, you know what, when I was young my dad used to drive me to school in the, the car that he borrowed from his friend, like, we didn’t even have a car. And I was so embarrassed and he was so embarrassed that he had to, like, borrow the neighbor’s car to, like, take me to school and then drop me back and then have it back in time. And it was just so complex. And he just goes, we were both so embarrassed and ashamed the whole time that we didn’t have a car as a family that this car is like, I want to drive our kids to school and, you know, like and she was just like, now, I’m not saying that justifies the spending. And I’m not saying that that’s okay. What I’m saying is just like she just got a whole new lens. We can work with that.
Jay: That’s a problem we can solve. That’s something that we can go to therapy, we can get coaching, we can do personal development. But when it’s just arguing about how someone spends their money …
Jay: … if it’s a – you won’t – a logical argument doesn’t, doesn’t win. It’s the emotional, it’s the psychological.
Brendon: It’s so hard because a lot of people, including myself, when I was like not good at relationships was – it was always about the tangible thing you’re arguing about and a great mentor in school, in college who said it’s never about the content, it’s about the process of communication and it’s about the, the, the relationship between us and it’s about the identity we have individually.
Brendon: And together. And what? Those are intangibles, right? It’s not about the car. It’s actually about why does car mean something to that person? And so your job is always like, be deconstructing that and trying to figure out and give it time. It’s so beautiful. This book is so needed right now because if you’ve enjoyed this conversation, like we’re just exploring different parts of relationship that we all struggle with, like intimacy, how to get better, how do you check in, how do you talk, how do you deal with a conflict and things like this. Out of the 8 Rules of Love, great title, beautiful book cover, brilliant writing, because I know how you think. What, what do you think is the most sort of unconventional of the 8 rules?
Brendon: Like the one that might be the one that people go, huh? Really? You know, maybe it’s a different take on something, or maybe just not as common or traditional.
Jay: Yeah, I think there’s one I’m going to mention, but one I’m going to talk about more deeply, because we’ve kind of talked about one of them. There’s one that’s called Your Partner Is Your Guru. And I think me and you can definitely identify with that.
Brendon: Oh, yes.
Jay: Denise has been your guru and Radhi has been mine, and I’ll leave that for the book because the book deeply explains the role of a guru. And you’re your partner’s guru, too, but not in the way you think, not in the way you assume. That the one that really took, took me again was the last rule, which is Love Again And Again. And this rule took me the longest to uncover and discover. And it’s something I think you’ll appreciate because I know you lived like this. You lived by this deeply. I realized that through my research and you were talking this morning about how much you love history. I was looking at the history of love and history of relationships in history, in media and everything. And I was looking at how media for sales, for ad – advertising, for marketing has placed romantic love as top of the hierarchy and pinnacle expression of love. So, if you look at any movie, it doesn’t matter what anyone else has. If they have romantic love that is seen as the pinnacle of all types of love.
Jay: Which means we often devalue other types of love. And what I found was sometimes the greatest expressions of love are a mother for their child, are for a father for his brother, are for me for my sister, are for you for your friends, are for Martin Luther King for his people.
Jay: Are for you know, you for humanity. Like the greatest love stories are actually not between two people. The greatest love stories in the world are when people extended themselves for their town, their city, their community and service of others, those were the greatest love stories of the world. Romeo and Juliet. It’s not even true and even if it was, it’s not a great, great love story.
Brendon: It’s not a great ending.
Jay: So I started to realize that I felt that people had lost their partners, maybe through natural causes or maybe someone’s gone through a divorce or maybe there’s someone out there who’s a single mom and thinks that they’re incomplete even though they adore their kids and their kids adore them back. But they think because of media that “I’m not complete because I haven’t found romantic love”. That’s just not true. It’s just not true. I want you to know that the love you share with your kids, your family, your parents, your mother, your father, and especially the people you serve …
Jay: … is equal to and potentially even greater than romantic love.
Brendon: I love this. You know what? I made a mistake early in my career. We send out surveys and assessments, you know, for high-achieving people and everything. And one of the categories in there was, we just said, you know, partner or spouse and of course, inevitably people come back, “I don’t have one so, I didn’t score myself”. So, their score would be thrown off in the assessment. And what we really – I know it sounds so simple, but actually tons of academic research has struggled from that. And what we really learned was it was less about that and it was more about do you have a sense of love and heart fulfillment?
Brendon: Do you have that sense of heart connection with other people?
Brendon: And it maybe it is your kids.
Brendon: Not a partner or a spouse or an intimate. It might be more of that familial, it might be more of that service, it might be more of that, that giving that generosity that makes your heart full. The question is, is your heart full? The question is, do you love yourself and can you love humanity or love that person or those people who you are in life with? Because love is that, that action. I know you, you teach us better than anyone. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a bigger thing than an individual transaction.
Jay: Yeah. And is love something that you’re waiting for, wishing for, and hoping for or giving away freely every day? Right? I think we think about love that has to come to us. We also think about love is something you share at home with your partner and your kids, but you can’t have it anywhere else. What if little moments of kindness stacked up to the experience of love? What if exchanges of positive energy is stacked up to be exchanges of love? Like why are we limiting? Love is limitless! So why are we limiting love to 2 hours a day when we get home?
Brendon: It’s so good. And I’ve learned from you in that spiritual study is, you know, and I’m a person of faith, so I believe in God. And there’s this divine love where when I wrote the chapter on love in Motivation Manifesto, it was all about this divine love and energy that is here, that is all around, that is unending, that is greater depths, greater harmony than we can possibly imagine. And so I wonder how, how does your spiritual sense of love …
Brendon: … how did it shape the book as a writer? I kind of think about that because I know it wasn’t just, I’m going to think about Radhi, I’m going to think about the research. It was like, no, you’re coming from a divine and spiritual kind of place, did that shape how you architected the book in any way?
Jay: Yes. So, the book goes through four stages, which are the exact four pursuits that are laid out in the Vedas. So, the Vedas say there are four pursuits in life. They are Dharma, Artha, Kama, Moksha and I’ll translate those because they’re Sanskrit words. So, Dharma is your purpose. Your purpose comes first. When you do Dharma, you get Artha. Artha is wealth creation. Your finances, taking care of your needs and taking care of the needs of the people you will have. Karma is connection. Not karma as in what goes around comes around. Kama, K-A-M-A, which is connection, that comes third. And then fourth is Moksha which is liberation or divine connection. These are the four pursuits of human life. And so the book follows that, and it goes from preparing for love to practicing love to protecting love, finally to perfecting love. And these are the four stages of love that we all have to go through. And if we don’t learn the lessons of stage one, it’s like a game. We get pushed back to that stage. Then you have to go to the next. And so I find that so many of us want to perfect love, but we don’t want to prepare and practice. And all of this – I mean, from a deeply spiritual point of view, the world is a school of love. We’re trying to purify ourselves of any other emotion apart from love. And so every experience that causes you pain, every experice that causes you stress, is trying to somehow get you to discover love. And I’m not saying love in the sense that everyone has to be close to you and you’re going to love everyone in the same way. But how can you view someone in a loving light when you meet them and when you connect with them? And so that’s how the divine and spiritual comes into that.
Brendon: I’m so excited for people to get their hands on the 8 Rules of Love.
Jay: Thank you so much.
Brendon: Jay, thank you for this conversation, because it was just so beautiful to think about it because it’s such a personal thing to all of us.
Brendon: And I know so many people struggle with it. So 8 Rules of Love, such an important book. Such a masterpiece of timing. The world really needs this book right now. I hope you all get it. Jay Shetty’s 8 rules of Love. Thank you, my friend.
Jay: Brendon. Thank you. And I just want to give, you know, this is what I love about talking to you because this was very spontaneous everyone, by the way, everyone watching. Me and Brendon were just together and we’re both like, oh, well, let’s let’s sit down and really talk about love. And it wasn’t something where we, where we planned this and prepared for this. And you just get to see what a, what a real, present person Brendon is, because all his connection, all of his knowledge, all of his wisdom, like this was just such a beautiful exchange of love with you today.
Brendon: That’s how I felt about it.
Jay: And that’s how I feel about it right now. And I wanted to say that because and that’s what’s – love can be spontaneous. It doesn’t have to be this massively orchestrated thing. And I just want to thank you for creating this space. Holding this space. And this was, this was beautiful. This is genuinely such a beautiful dialog. Thank you so much.
Brendon: Thank you, my friend.
Jay: Thank you.
Brendon: All right. I hope you enjoyed this interview with Jay Shetty. Please go pick up his book, The 8 Rules of Love. I know you’ll actually love the book. What area of our life do we have to work on more than love of self, love of others, and love of service? I think you’re going to get some deep dive, real transformational teaching in the 8 Rules of Love by Jay Shetty. And listen, if you are into ongoing deep dive self-improvement, make sure you join us in GrowthDay. GrowthDay is the world’s number one self-improvement system. We have all the tools you need for your mindset journaling, your habit tracking, your goal setting, your challenges, your ability to learn live every single week from the best motivational teachers, wellness experts, and true guides in this world. And it’s not an interview. I bring them together each week and they teach a framework and go deep with you in GrowthDay. So it’s not like a podcast, but rather it’s the world’s best, foremost teachers in person development actually teaching a full seminar every single week. Check it out at GrowthDay.com
All human beings, what we really desire once we get past safety and sustenance are these four aspirations. We want a greater sense of aliveness, that might mean presence, consciousness, awareness, vibrancy, passion, enthusiasm. We all want more of that. Some people call it adventure, some people call it just the spice of life, or you ought to be. Whatever it is, we want a sense of aliveness. And the second aspiration we talk about was deep connections. That means your relationships. At the end of our lives, it’s the relationships that matter so much to us. And we know from research that the deeper relationships you have, the longer we live. Third, meaningful pursuits. Some people get this through creating, some people get this through service. But I’m here to tell you the important phrase here is meaningful pursuits. You have to pursue something. We all want to get better, to become more, to be a better leader, a parent, servant, role model. That sense each day that we have something to do that matters. GrowthDay, world’s number one system for achieving it. We know from research to improve your life long term, you’ve got to track your habits. You need a mindset journal, you’ve got to have a goal setting system. You need deep dive education, you need coaching, you’ve got to have ongoing conversations with other people about your personal and your professional goals. Our goal for you is to help you make self-improvement a way of life by giving you things that give you the guidance, the inspiration, the drive and the motivation to continue becoming more and more successful, healthy and happy in your life. Every day is a great day to grow. We say that every day in GrowthDay. Let’s make this day the day you begin that journey.